Transcript of the Milan IRC
Here is quite a bit of the Milan conference that
took place on IRC with the developers. I've cut out most of the irrelavant
messeges of the IRC chat like when people signed off and on to make it
more readable. I've also color-coded it to divide the text up a little
and to distinguish between speakers. The
moderator, Tib_F, is in red; Milan
developers are in yellow; and users are in
white. Hope that this helps you follow along.
<Tib_F> ok, Mario asks for a introduction.
Uwe? please go ahead! :-)
<Tib_F> ok, here we have Uwe_S. he is doing
all teh hardware-stuff
<Tib_F> rincewind is doing most of the software
specific stuff
<Tib_F> um? uwe? michael? you have the word!
<rincewind> OK - I think we simply start with
the questions ...
<rincewind> ozk: You promote the Milan's MultiOS
to be MiNT/Thing/N.AES. But you also only mention Draconis as the
tcp/ip implementation. Why not use MiNTnet?
<rincewind> MintNet should run without problems.
I am not sure where Draconis was mentioned ... but we have people
working on ethernet drivers for MineNet now.
<Tib_F> <_Mario> So MiNT runs well on the
Milan?
<rincewind> It does. You need a current MiNT
version (currently 1.14 with some minor patches for the serial ports),
but it works just fine.
<rincewind> ozk: Why is the Milan so much
cheaper than the Hades040? Does the Milan use cheaper parts than
the Hades, and does that affect it's performance? Will it be as fast
as the Hades?
<Tib_F> here is one for Ali: <Gravyboat>
Will there be an english version of the milan homepage soon?
<ag-milan> Let me say something regarding
the price ...
<Tib_F> another one for ali:
<Dial_M> Will there be any marketing of the
Milan in non-Atari specific computer shows? and what's the word on
U.S. distribution?...
<ag-milan> I think that there are mainly two
reasons why the milan is so cheap
<Tib_F> uwe, this one is for you:
<_Mario> What sort of common "PC" cards can
I use on the milan (I.e. drivers)?
<Uwe_S> The Milan ist so much cheaper because
of the cheaper components from the PC-Board. The Clock frequency
of the Milan is 25MHz and the clock of the Hades040 33Mhz. The Mlan
with 33MHz is as fast as the Hades040.
<Tib_F> and another one for Ali:
<Rich10> which countries will the Milan be
available in ?
<ag-milan> 1) We do not have all the ST-components
like Soundchip, SCSI-Port ... on the milan-board. The hardware we
need to run ATARI-software that uses special ST-Hardware is beeing
emulated by logic chips ... that makes a lot cheaper and easier
<petzi> Gravyboat: The English website will
be up in July
<ag-milan> 2) the second reason is that we
do not only want to sell a view hunderets to earn our money ... we
want a new TOS-market and this is only possible if we have attractive
prices. What means: we do really not earn a lot! We hope to earn
with a bigger future-market.
<rincewind> _Mario: The hardware supports
ISA and PCI cards. From the hardware side, most common cards should
work just fine - the problem is that you need drivers for them.
<ag-milan> The milan will be available in
many countries :-), we have now GB, France, Netherlands, Austria,
Switzerland, Poland, Danmark, Canada, US ... this list is growing
and it's astonoshing to see how many atarians all over the world
are interested in the milan (Greec, Japan, Portugal ....)
<Uwe_S> At this time we have only drivers
for simple Network card, S3 Video Cards and one Midi card. It is
possible to plug in all PC-Cards you want, the only thing is to get
a driver for it. We are working on drivers for SCSI-Cards and Sound-Cards.
<Tib_F> we just change the chat slightly.
tiitsu has aquestion: tiisu: please ask:
<rincewind> OK - don't /msg us with questions.
We will first work the questions still inthe queue and then give
+v to you to ask yourself on the channel.
<rincewind> ozk: How easy (or hard) is it
to get it up to 33Mhz?
<Tiitsu> Is it Hades hardware compatible with
Milan hardware? Can I use those Milan SCSI-card drivers with Hades?
etc...
<rincewind> ozk: the hardware runs fine at
33MHz - onlt the CPUs are a bit more difficult to get at that speed.
<rincewind> Tiitsu: PCI cards work fine in
Hades and Milan. We have worked out a common PCI BIOS standard so
that drivers work in Hades and Milan without modifications.
<petzi> Wups
<rincewind> Tiitsu: The Hades can't do DMA
on the ISA bus, so some sound cards etc. that work in the Milan won't
work in the Hades.
<Tib_F> ok. next is
<JoshuaK> Hi, I was wondering about the TOS.
Is it also in English? I hears Motorola is short of 060 CPUs. How
will that affect the relese of the 060 version?
<rincewind> The TOS is a multi-language version
- and english will definitely be supported. I am not sure about the
list of other languages, but if there is enough demand, we can add
them.
<Mikey_1> Will there be a Milan060 or a way
to update it to one?
<Uwe_S> The TOS is in english too. I havent
heard that Motzorola is short of 060 CPUs. The 060 CPU is much more
expensive then the 040 CPU because of that we deceided tor release
the Milan first wich an 040 CPU.
<ag-milan> about sweden: actually we do not
have a dealer, but milan will be on the atari nordic show and after
the show we'll try to contact some dealers ... but at least indigo
2 from Danmark is interested and they also support Sweden, Norway
...
<Uwe_S> The release with the 060 CPU will
come with a litte daughterboard in the end of the Year.
[AnthonyJ] you mention ethernet drivers - for
common/cheap cards?
<rincewind> There is work going on for NE2000-based
ethernet cards (PCI) and DEC Tulip cards. I have a SMC Ultra (ISA)
running using the TUWTCP package.
<GothAsh> You mention on the web site AudioTracker
and Cubase Audio compatibility - is this with a DSP card?
[rosebud] What about Peter Rottengatter's STing?
<ag-milan> Yes, and the NE2000-drivers are
very interesting because they support any TCP/IP-Network ... wether
you have Linux, NT or MilanOS ..
<rincewind> I have not yet looked into that,
but I believe Peter is already working on something in that direction
for the Panther ISA adapter. If that works, it should be trivial
to adapt it to the Milan.
<ag-milan> okay, regarding the DSP-Cards
<rincewind> If someone els is interested,
there is no problem in getting developer support.
<ag-milan> Until now it's only the StarTrack-Card
with a 56301-DPS that's running on a milan. We have made an XBIOS
that ist compatible with the Falcon XBIOS so any program that uses
the XBIOS-routines
<ag-milan> should work fine with any soundcard
that is adapted to the milan. We'll get support by SoundPool and
Softjee, too, will join the milan ... Cubase ...
<ag-milan> ist a little more difficult to
handle. They have a lot of falon-code in their software and Steinberg
GMBH wants to wait until ...
<redpixel> will it support 3dfx cards?
<ag-milan> the milan becomes a success ....
but Mr. Steinberg himself is an ATARI-Fan and he told us that he'll
spend his sparetime ...
<Tib_F> redpixel: there are no applications
to support 3dfx. even no opengl-applications, which wcould be suupported
via mesa
<ag-milan> to adapt the actual-version of
Cubase-Audio to the milan ... It's just a question of time!
<Tib_F> ok, ozk has a question. please go
ahead ozk
<ozk> I wonder about developer documentation..
will most atari development docs do, and will I get the machine specific
stuff with the machine when I buy it? Or will i have to register
as a developer?
<rincewind> If you do not want to do hardware
specific stuff, the standard Atari documentation will do.
<rincewind> Ie. VDI/AES/...
<Tib_F> now quiet has a question:
<rincewind> If you need hardware access, eg.
for writing device drivers, you need special documentation. The one
about the PCI BIOS is finished, we are still working on the other
documentation. It will be available from the web site.
<Quiet-> i want to know which graphic cards
are supported, currently? are there any drivers for the Matrox
Millenium or Mystique? thanks
<ThomasG> At this time we support s3 trio64
v+/dx/dx2 cards. If we get information from Matrox,it will be possible
to support Matrox Cards too
<Tib_F> now mario hase a quesetion. mario?
<_Mario> What keyboard and mouse will be used
on the Milan?
<Uwe_S> A standard PC-Keyboard and an PS-2
Mouse
<Tib_F> <scheng> why you don't sell the
Milan in a standard case? Why we have to spend more money by the
dealers for a Milan design case?
<ag-milan> That's not correct with the cases
<Tib_F> <TomFerrei> has a question:
<TomFerrei> Two questions. I never really
heard about your company until recently. Have you been around
for awhile and what size company are you. 2nd question
is I heard that there will be a Pentium card available for the Milan.
Is this true and will it run popular OSes like NeXT OPENSTEP and
BeOS. One machine with TOS, MilanOS, BeOS, and OPENSTEP would be great!
BTW, I love the Milan case... Looks hot!!!
<ag-milan> We do sell them in standard-cases
... we only promote a special case because it's important to recognice
a system when you first see it on the web or in magazines and than
in a computer-shop or so ... that's it ... everyone can use any case
:-)
<ag-milan> Regarding us ... continuing...(:Tib_F!
<ag-milan> Uwe Schneider has his own hardware-production-company
and he's been working for several atari-dealers in the last years
together with Michael Schwingen ... me I do the German ATARI-Magazine
and have a Software-Support ... so we're both well known in the market
as ATARI-Enthusiasts
<Tib_F> <dieter> Is it planned to make
alternate systems available, like MagiC or Linux-68k? If yes: do
you know, when it will be available?
<Uwe_S> Because we are using standard PC-Komponents
on the Milan motherboard it is easy to develop a Pentim card using
all this components. But the big problem is to get a PC-BIOS for
the card, because of the small quantitiy of the Pentium card.
<rincewind> dieter: Yes, we do plan to support
Linux. Roman Hodek was very interested on the atri show in Neuss.
<rincewind> ASH is interested in porting Magic,
but I do not know when this might be done.
<Uwe_S> if we get enoutg intrest in the Pentium
card it will be available soon. Common operating systems should work.
<Tib_F> now its <josk> turn. <josk>
go ahead:
<petzi> dieter: Anyome who's interested in
MagiC Milan, drop them a line to show them there's a demand
<josk> Will it be possible to buy a standalon
motherboard? I have a lot of stuff lying around (inc. a 040)...
<ag-milan> If your dealer sells you a board
it's okay ...
<rincewind> josk: At least in the first time,
only dealers will get bare motherboards, so it is up to them do decide
if they want to sell them alone or only in a complete system.
<Tib_F> now its <^Gryf^> turn:
<^Gryf^> How's the layout of the PC keyboard,
i.e. which keys are Help, Undo, and are PgUp/Down mapped to produce either
a special combination or the standard VDI scancodes for thses keys?
<rincewind> Currently, we have HELP and UNDO on PrtScrn and ScrollLock.
PageUp and PageDn shall produce the standard VDI codes - however,
I am not sure how many programs do support these.
<ThomasG> VDi standar codes for pageup and
page down maybe possible
<^Gryf^> Well, one does ;)
<rincewind> So we might have to look for another
solution.
<ThomasG> I thing Magic use the etra Keys
on the Mac
<Tib_F> <Bagpuss> wanted to ask how the
price has been kept low when other tos computers (hades etc) are
so expensive?
<Uwe_S> Because of he use od standard PC-Components
and a emulation for the not existing Atari Hardware.
<Tib_F> now Szuko^DSP:
<petzi> MrMaddog: Have you seen the list of
compatible software on our website?
<Tib_F> szuko doesnt want to ask?
<drac030> regarding freemint... is the milan
os team interested in cooperation with people involved in freemint
development? i mainly mean sharing patches, consulting the further
mint directions etc? thanks.
<rincewind> Sure. Rainer Mannigel does the
most work on MiNT - but we are interested in having the current Freemint
working on Milan out-of-the-box, so we will provide all necessary
patches etc.
<Tib_F> <Rich10> what sort of market are
you aiming at, low end PC type or high end atarians
<_Mario> Will drivers for standard "PC" serial-port
cards be available? And parallel ports?
<ag-milan> Why low-end PC? We've made a test:
a JPG-Grafic roteted on a milan with 25 MHz 8 times faster than on
a falcon (both with the brand new Smurf-Graficsoftware) but the Falcon-Version
was exactly as fast as a Power PC 200 with Adobe Photoshop with the
same operation ... many, many people will be very surprised about
the powerful combination "Mian, TOS and small ATARI-Soft"
<Tib_F> now quiet asks again:
<Uwe_S> There are 3 Serial ports and one parallel
port on the motherboard, but it is possible to get more ports with
PC-PlugIn cards.
<rincewind> The on board ones are already
supported.<rincewind> If you need more, it should be no big problem
to get them working using the same drivers.
<Quiet-> assides from Thomas Raukamp, is Rainer
Mannigel also involved in the MiNT list? thanks.
<rincewind> What mint list? I believe he does
not read the MiNT mailing list, since he does not have a real internet
address.
<Quiet-> the mint list:
<Tib_F> just a comment: at http://www.uweschneider.de/images/hardware/board2.jpg
you can see the motherboard of the milan
<Quiet-> mint@atari.archive.umich.edu. to
subscribe to the list, email:hyc@highlandsun.com <Howard Chu>
<rincewind> OK, I know the list ... I just
was not sure what kind of 'list' you meant.
<Quiet-> it might be a good idea, since MiNT
development is discussed there ever day
<TomFerrei> For those of us that buy the Milan
040 now, will we beable to buy this 060 daughter card later so we
can become 060 or would we need a whole new motherboard??
<Tib_F> now we go on to <TomFerrei>
<Uwe_S> It is possible to get the daughterboard.
You need not to buy a new motherboard for the 060 CPU
<Tib_F> now: <AnthonyJ>
<AnthonyJ> whats the situation with sound
hardware? are you going to support the standard Atari/Falcon frequencies,
or will all software have to be modified to understand PC [44.1 etc]
frequencies?
<rincewind> That depends on the sound hardware
you use. The StarTrack board should be able to do all falcon frequencies,
but I am not 100% sure.
<AnthonyJ> ah, ok, so you dont plan to build
your own sound-card with compat hardware.
<Tib_F> FYI, Drac030 is also the current MiNT
kernel maintainer.<rincewind> ISA sound cards are quite flexible, too.
However, I think all professional software is capable of using 44.1/48kHz
anyway.
<petzi> We should get the StarTrack-developper
Stephan Wilhelms (??) to another chat
<Tib_F> now MrMaddog has a question......
<MrMaddog> I have another question, since
I would like to develop ST and possibly Falcon games...how well can
they run on the Milan?
<Uwe_S> Stefan Wilhelm the developer of the
StarTrac Sound card planned to develop a cheaper Version of the StarTrak
card, so we do not need to develop a own soundcard.
<Tib_F> <ozk> has another question:
<ozk> I wonder about the Pentium Card that
Computer Direct was producing.. Willl anyone take over than devlopment?
Thanks
<rincewind> Maddog: if they use VDI, they
should run fine.
<rincewind> Direct hardware access is a problem
- you can't switch screens on a VGA card as you can on a falcon or
ST.
<Tib_F> great! netsplit!!
<Uwe_S> I do not know the Pentium Crad from
Computer Direct.
<drac030> yeps.
<Uwe_S> We planned to develop our own card
because we can use the main memory and the ports of the Milan.
<drac030> ok, what is the milan memory map.
i understand there's no more ST RAM? continuing...(:Tib_F :well.
quiet had the last question. hes )
<Tib_F> well. quiet had the last question.
hes at the other side now ;-) somebody else? tnx drac!
<Uwe_S> The Milan has Memory below 14Megs
(ST-RAM) and Memory above 16Megs (TT-RAM) but there is no difference
in access time between ST and TT-RAM.
<rincewind> The only difference is that ISA
DMA can only access the lower 16MB, ie. the ST-RAM.
<drac030> uew: what is the max amount of memory?
<Uwe_S> 512 MB of RAM
<drac030> uew = uwe, sorry.
<Tib_F> now <Quietti> has onother one:
<Quietti> ok, since you mention video screens
not being accessible easily, excpet using VDI, does this mean MiNT
virtual consoles won't work? thanks
<rincewind> Quietty: not sure. You can directly
access the video memory - but there is only one screen, you can't
switch the screen base. If the cirtual console driver switches between
them by copying the contents, it should work.
<drac030> rincewind: is the screen mem accessible
in user mode (stupid question probably)?
<rincewind> Yes, it is.
<Tib_F> now it's <GothAsh> turn:
<GothAsh> So, AudioTracker will *need* additional
hardware - how expensive will this be as I'm just a poor student
:-(
<ThomasG> in the Milan works a Grafikcard,which
use his own memory so it isn't possible to switch to his own screen.
<rincewind> A standard 50-100DM PC sound card
(Soundblaster or similar) should be sufficient as soon as we have
drivers for them.
<drac030> rincewind: what about a support
in the OS itself for multiple screens? that would greatly facilitate
writing vcons driver (not exactly a great piece of software now)?
<rincewind> The problsm is that the video
hardware can't do it, no matter of OS support.
<ag-milan> Depends on the soundcard that is
ported to the milan ... The XBIOS allowes you even to use a Soundblaster-Card
... So maybe there'll be some cheaper and some better cards in the
near future ... we're working on a Soundblaster-Driver which only
would noct allow you to use DSP-Effects
<drac030> rincewind: i meant by copying the
screen contents, not by reallocation...
<rincewind> It could be done in lower resolutions
where you have enough video mem, but this is not a general solution
- so we would have to copy the screen memory.
<ThomasG> The only possible way to switch
screens, is to allocate 2 screnn on the card and then switch between
them,maybe possible.I will look
<Tib_F> <pahartik^> has a question about
the OS:
<rincewind> drac: Do you need OS support for
copying the screen? It would be no big problem, but is it needed?
<pahartik^> about Milan's default OS... is
it easy to upgrade? 'flashing' by software? is it possible to boot
without disk drives?
<drac030> thomas: what about "blitting" the
"not-used" screen to a fast ram buffer?
<Uwe_S> Yes it ist easily to be upgraded.
You need to start a program to flast the new OS
<drac030> rincewind: well, no i don't need
:-) but if various gfx cards might be used, a unified interface like
that would be useful... i don't know though.
<Uwe_S> Yes it is possible to boot the system
wishout Floppy and/or harddisks.
<Tib_F> now <FBI_> informs me, that there
will be a Milan at the Nordic Atari Show 1998. just /msg him for
more infos ;-)
<rincewind> drac: OK - maybe Thomas should
think about this.
<ThomasG> Use a standard VDI Funktion,or do
it yourself.But it isnt quick. 640*480*8 or so
<Tib_F> <ozk> with another question:
<Tib_F> ozk?
<ozk> I wonder what types of ram can be use..
I understand that standard 72-pin simms can be used.. Can EDO too?
Plans about supporting SDRAM ? Also, the lower 16-meg or ram.. that's
accessed as 32-bit ?
<rincewind> You need EDO SIMMS. All memory
is accessed the same kind.
<Tib_F> <dieter> What about the SCSI-card,
will it be available at the beginning ?
<Uwe_S> pahartik^: We have an bootblock which
can be flashed diefferently to the Milan TOS if it is needed. With
an intact bootblock you can boot up the TOS from Floppy and flash
a new TOS.
<Uwe_S> If flashing the bootblock fails you
need to change the Flash-ROM which is in an socket.
<Tib_F> <AnthonyJ> is the PMMU used/needed
by the OS? It was pointed out on the MiNT mailing list recently that
this use in the AB040 could make Memory Protection+Virtual Memory
even more complex.
<rincewind> Yes, the bootblock and the TOS
both use the PMMU to create a ST-compatible memory map. However,
this map is static after booting and is not modified.
<drac030> hm, ok. we heard about milan 040
and future moving to 060. what next? any plans?
<ag-milan> Actually we can and do not want
to say anything about future-plans. Of course we do have a lot of
plans. Milan ist not only a two years project and the number of interests
shows us that we may become a big "small-one" in that business.
<Tib_F2> now popel has a question
<popel> cool what about the future,
does you have the financial power to develop a new machine?
<ag-milan> We had the power to buy a complete
OS that still cost a lot including all that we needed, we had the
power to do an onwn hardwaresystem with new PCI-Bios-Systems, we
had the power to rework the OS completely and we had the power to
build up a reseller-network of more thant 40 distributors ... I am
not afraid about what will come :-)
<petzi> So is everyone back again ;)
<Tib_F2> <Mario_> has the next question:
<Mario_> Can I use two monitors on the Milan,
by simply connecting more than one graphiccs card?
<rincewind> In theory: yes. The problem is
that someone needs to do drivers for that, and the VDI was not designed
for multi-monitor operation.
<ThomasG> At This Time only one Monitor,in
the Future it could be possible to use two Cards in the Milan,but
the VDi can't manage that now.
<Tib_F2> now <Quietti> hast a new question....
<Quietti> 2 things: 1) about Mario's question,
i think he was refering to the TT030, where one can use a TTM195
for virtual MiNT consoles 1 to 9, but use a VGA monitor on a VME
graphics card, for console (ie: AES) at the same time now,
my own question:
<rincewind> Quietty: If you do not need VDI,
multiple VGA cards are just a software problem.
<Quietti> will there ever be a Milan laptop?
My Stacy is nice, but it's slow and can only have 4 megs of ram,
so a Milan laptop would be quite welcome ;-))
<Quietti> vconsd uses vdi, afaik
<ThomasG> You must draw everything yourself.
<rincewind> I suppose not. It would have to
be a completely new hardware design
<ozk> The vcons are hardcoded to work with
Atari's own video-circuitry, while the aes access the screen via
vdi. That's what make it possible to have two screens connected to
a TT/falcon with gfx card. (I use that)
<rincewind> I doubt that there would be a
market for that.
<Tib_F2> now <_Thomas> has a question about
the processor...
<_Thomas> why 680x0 and not PPC? It has a
future that the 680x0 don't have...
<rincewind> ozk: you could use a VGA card
in text mode for the consoles. We would need support for switching
between text and graphics mode in the OS, then your driver could
do the rest.
<rincewind> ozk: in that case, a second card
in textmode would be easier, too.
<Uwe_S> We are using the 040 CPU because or
the low price and the compatibility with the older 680x0 CPUs.
<ThomasG> I think so too,and ist relative
simple to implement
<petzi> _Thomas: You need a completely re-designed
OS for PPC, and you need special software-version also. That's not
done in a day, just think about how Amiga struggles with that. I
personally think supporting the existing software is a wise decision
before looking ahead with a strong market
<ozk> Quietti: i think it would
be a good thing for the hardware team to investigate how the MiNTe
using the 040 CPU because of the video
<Uwe_S> We thought about a PPC design with
an software emulation like the Mac but with this emulation a very
fast PPC is needed to get the same speed as an 040/060 CPU.
<Tib_F2> now <popel> has a question about
the production of the milan...
<popel> I heard about alot of preorders for
the MIlan, who long will it last till you can deliver the systems?
how many systems are peorderd?
<petzi> popel: Ali should answer that one,
for he has all the statistics
<Tib_F2> we seem to have some more lag in
the irc.......
<ThomasG> Ali is not there but i think >100
<Tib_F2> <Quietti> just a comment:
since the MiNT vcons using a TTM195 on the TT video, while the AES
goes through a video card, is a common trick, it might be a good
idea for the hardware crew to investigate vcons sources
<petzi> Ali, how many preorders have we got?
<ag-milan> I think this is something we should
not talk about here ... just two things: Imagine what happenes if
almost 40 dealers have some ATARI-Users that want to have a Milan
NOW and not tomorrow and then imagine what happenes if some of the dealers
have a demo-mashine for 3 days and the number of orders grows 2 to
5 times of the number bevore ... after people have seen this wonderful
mashine :-)
* drac030 has a stupid question...
<drac030> we (at least me) used to see Atari
logo at bootup. how the milan logo looks like ?
<rincewind> The Milan logo (only the "Milan")
as on www.milan-computer.de
<petzi> drac030: Look at the website ... http://www-milan-computer.de
<drac030> thanks
<GothAsh> has a question about music
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh> please go ahead
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh1> has problems....
<Tib_F2> <_Thomas> your turn....
<_Thomas> What development tools are there?
Devpac for example, only supports -68040 and I dunno if I could live
without it... :)
<rincewind> Thomas: gcc/gas work fine, and
PureC. There are not that much new opcodes you could use on the 68040/68060
in usermode.
<ThomasG> I Use PureC and The Pure Debugger.Both
work fine.
<rincewind> So a development system that does
support the 68030 or newer is usually sufficient.
PuerPascal should work, too.
<drac030> thomas/rincewind: do original debuggers
work? i heard there are problems on afterburner for example?
<Tib_F2> <Mario_> has a questiion about
usenet....
<rincewind> you need a patched version of
pure debugger to work on the 68040 CPU.
<Mario_> I read in c.s.a.s. that Milan will
be bundled with apps incl. Papyrus 6 "Home", Texel 2"Home" etc. Does
that mean these are not fully functional versions, or what? Also,
will Papyrus 6 be available apart from with the Milan?
<rincewind> (which is available from ASH)
<drac030> thanks.
<ozk> draco: What debuggers are you referring
to?
<drac030> ozk: pure debugger, monst... (i
guess gdb works)
<ozk> draco: Ok
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh1> will the Milan developers
make music/MIDI/D2D as important a theme as with the original ST/Falcon?
<ag-milan> I think we should - for the ATARI-Musicians!
But isn't it nice that people will soon be able to choose between
different soundcards, between 1 or 3 Rom-Ports andso on?
<petzi> Mario_: The apps you mentioned are
special versions for the software-bundle, which lack some functions
that are mostly only interisting for professional use - you can upgrade
all versions. Papyrus 6 is already available from ROM-LOGICWARE,
yes
<TomFerrei> Curious if Hasbro, the new owners
of the Atari enterprise, have shown any interest in your company
and the Milan?
<Tib_F2> petzi: <Mario_> Will those apps
be in English?
<petzi> Mario_: English versions of papyrus,
smurf and texel are available in August, the rest is in development
<ag-milan> I have been to the HASBRO Headquarters
in Germany ... they are only interested in developeing Games for
PC, U64 and Playstations but they will fully respect and accept milan,
TOS and the TOS-Market without makeing any trouble regarding their
new rights. That's good news for everyone who uses somewhere or somehow
the name ATARI ...
<Tib_F2> <Quietti> goes for another one
<Quietti> since we were mentioning music,
does the milan have built-in midi ports, or at least a DB-9 like
the hades? als, are the OS sources public using GNU copyleft
or similar? or will developpers only get a bundle of C bindings? thanks.
<rincewind> The sources are not free. The
TOS is licensed work from Atari/DRI.
<Quietti> oh! speaking of DRI/TOS:
<rincewind> You get the same as on all ST
machines - the TOS is fully compatible. Now if you yse MiNT, this
one is free of course.
<Uwe_S> No, the Milan has no built in Midi-port.
There are drivers for a ISA-PlugIn Midi card and the Midi port on
a Soundblaster compatible port
<Quietti> what is the current status?
from the purchase file made public, it's not clear wether jts still
owns tos or if hasbro bought them; sometimes, it seems hasbro
only owns the atari name, sometimes that they own everything. what's
the story?
<Tib_F2> <AnthonyJ> what about Lattice?
Over here (UK) Pure-C isn't anywhere near as popular as Lattice.
<Quietti> if it's possible, it would be good
to make TOS available under GNU copyleft, so people on MiNT and MagiC
could implement similar features, while still respecting the original
copyrights
<rincewind> That's definitely not possible
- due to licensing/copyright issues.
<ThomasG> I don't have Lattice ,but the original
C Souces of the TOS are compiled with Latice i think.
<Quietti> also, what about YOUR tos version?
when will the TT version be available, for upgrades? pfiew!!!!! many
questions. thanks! ;)
<rincewind> I have the current TOS running
on my TT for testing. However, it will take some more work to make
it a stable, releasable version.
<ag-milan> HASBRO own everything! They are
mostly interested in the name because it's well known all over the
world ... they are not so interested in the TOS-Market ... or are
they? Well, I've been invited by HASBRO for a longer talk last week
and let's see, if there'll be a surprise, soon....
<Tib_F2> ok, no more questions? just ask!
<Quietti> who owns the TT schematics? there
are hardware upgrades i have, but i need the full scpecs before i
can produce them, but no one seems to have access to the designs...
<drac030> ok, some gnu software has autocofnig
scripts that looks for vendor=atari ... shall we keep that style
or we should move to vendor = milan? (free software foundation may
complain, as i hear)
<rincewind> I guess we should leave it as
'atari', since the OS etc. is known under that name.
<Quietti> for instance, i want to fix the
TT video chip to remove the white border, but i need all the sources
for that... do i sak hasbro or jts?
<Quietti> sak=ask
<drac030> rincewind so thought i (the same
OS may run on genuine ataris as well)
<rincewind> I don't think anyone has access
to the hardware documentation about the chips itself.> The TT schematic
etc. should still be available from 'Schaltungsdienst Lange' in Berlin.
<Quietti> well... who has it? JTS or Hasbro?
it's probably simple to fix, since it works fine on the Falcon..
<rincewind> Um - what do you mean by 'fix'?
make a new chip without the bug?
<Quietti> rincewind, i specifically need tt
video-shifter sources, to fix that bug exactly. a new shifter
<rincewind> Difficult. However, you should
be able to make a new shifter without knowing how atari did theirs.
<Quietti> i want to fix 2 things: the
squashed alignment problem, the white border well... beyond fixing,
i'd like to make into a pseudo-videl that knows about the programable
modes...
<rincewind> However, IIRC the shifter contains
the D/A converters. Producing such a chip with midex digital/analog
design does not sound trivial.
<Quietti> exactly.
<rincewind> And the shifter does know nothing
about the video modes. You need to change the other chips, too, to
get new modes.
<rincewind> I guess it might be easier to
develop some kind of graphics card.
<Quietti> that's why i'd rather start with
videl and tt-shifter sources, to know how they fixed it for Falcon
<rincewind> I think they did not 'fix' it
- they designed a new chip.
<Quietti> well... yes, but they obviously
fixed the color modes NOT to have that stupid white border like on
TT anyhow.. ;)
<drac030> quietti: there may be a way to fix
the tt shifter by an externla circuit. no need to redesign the whole
chip just for a black border.
<Quietti> draco, possibly. mario tried a few
things already
<rincewind> OK. How about some more Milan
questions?
<drac030> rincewind: speaking about video
rincewidn: what is the default colour for the screen? whilte (atari)
or black (pc)?
<rincewind> white.
<drac030> ok.
<rincewind> At least when running in monochrome
mode. Colour modes use the same standard palette as other STs.
<ozk> rincewind: Are you on a Milan now?
<rincewind> No. It more looks like a Sun UltraSparc
:-)
<ozk> Any of you milan developers using a
Milan right now?
<GothAsh> how far advanced is work with Soundpool/Softjee
and when will drivers for D2D be finished?
<Tib_F2> <[Vido]> is NeoN Grafix working
on Milan?
<ag-milan> SoundPool-Software almost works
on Milan! Softjee will start to work on it this summer
<petzi> Vido: The TT-version should work ...
Ali?
<Tib_F2> >Comp7> And how about Cubase audio?
apparantly steinberg stopped atari development so is the last version
completely compatible with milan+dsp card?
<petzi> Comp7: The latest version will be
ported to Milan, according to Charly Steinberg ... but no date now,
for he's working on it in his spare time
<Tib_F2> ok, we seem to have serious lag at
the IRC again. lokks like we took a bad time for this event ;-)
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