Info-Atari16 Digest Fri, 31 May 91 Volume 91 : Issue 305 Today's Topics: 'only_ste.lzh' ASV - first impressions... Atari 540ST Questions (2 msgs) Atari Mortis (3 msgs) Fan on the MEGAFILE 30 (3 msgs) gcr Legal action against STrabble game. looking for stacey Modula-3 Problems with GDOS and HD driver (again) ST User Virus! Unix for the TT? WANTED: PD Neochrome Editor What's a fair comparison? Welcome to the Info-Atari16 Digest. The configuration for the automatic cross-posting to/from Usenet is getting closer, but still getting thrashed out. Please send notifications about broken digests or bogus messages to Info-Atari16-Request@NAUCSE.CSE.NAU.EDU. Please send requests for un/subscription and other administrivia to Info-Atari16-Request, *NOT* Info-Atari16. Requests that go to the list instead of the moderators are likely to be lost or ignored. If you want to unsubscribe, and you're receiving the digest indirectly from someplace (usually a BITNET host) that redistributes it, please contact the redistributor, not us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 May 91 06:09:59 GMT From: noao!asuvax!ukma!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!rjast1@a rizona.edu (Robert J Anisko) Subject: 'only_ste.lzh' To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article larserio@ifi.uio.no writes: >The ONLY_STE disk is AUTO-BOOTING and contains PURE DATA for the AUTO-BOOTING >DEMO. In addition ONE SMALL PART of the disk is a NORMAL DISK with a few >program files - THIS IS NOT the demo. DO NOT use a virus killer on the disk >as this will remove the autoboot and make it unusable.... > > Lars-Erik / ABK-BBS +47 2132659 / ____ ______ ________________________ > Osterud / larserio@ifi.uio.no / /___ / The norwegian ST For any users that might have been Atari 8-bit users at one time, the MSA (Magic Shadow Archiving) works in the same way as DISCOMM or Scrunch - it simply takes data from the whole disk (including boot sectors) and puts it into a file, so it can be transmitted via modem. Then when the file is received, you just reverse the process and unpack it to a full disk, boot and all. For some programs and demos, this is the only way to go about it (say an author doesn't want you messing with his/her data (by loading a file into an editor such as Edhack) - so he/she wipes out the directory and makes the program autobooting - kinda a method of file protection... Robert Anisko rjast1@cis.unix.pitt.edu ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 11:28:07 GMT From: mcsun!cernvax!chx400!bernina!hb9zz@uunet.uu.net (Marco Zollinger) Subject: ASV - first impressions... To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Here in Zurich there has been the anual logic computer show. There have been several new very interesting products to see, in particular a series of new Unix machines in the "popular" class. The first I've seen is the Mac with A/UX 2.1. It isn't yet a SYSV, and there are some compatibility problems, but the BSD and SYSV libraries are included, and the integration of MultiFinder and Unix with X Window 11R4 is really impressive. I find they are really on the good way. I've been there during about 15-20 min, and Dr. Antonov, the Unix Guru there, I think, explained me every detail with enourmous enthusiasm. Althougth I don't have a Mac, and the price of A/UX 2.1 is to high for me (not to speek about the X Win., wich is not bundled with), his presentation was fantastic. The second system I've seen is the Amiga 3000UX. It was also really impressive! The OpenLook interface operated exactly the same way as the Sun's OpenWindows 2.0 we have at school, and the price was really interesting too. The Commodore port of SYSV is the most complete I've seen for this class of machines. It comes with everything, from the networking capabilities to the BSD lib. and util. and OpenLook. The guy there is a student of economical computing at the Univ. ZH (his name is Blatter), and he let me "play" with the machine, showed me an xterm connection with another non Unix Amiga, and so on. At last I came to the Arari boots and I couldn't belive my (x)eyes. The Unix machine was there and there was nobody around it!!! The windowing interface looked great. I went there and tried some commands out in a csh, as the cd, ls, and so on. Then came a man, and with an impolite voice asked me :"kann ich Ihnen helfen?" (can I help you?) and stand in front of me so that I could not see the screen! The message was clear: Take your hands off my machine and get out of here! I asked him some details about the new machine (btw: how can an atari laser work with Unix w/o stopping the processor? I think it is impossible by soft) and his answer were allways very expeditive and short. Absolutely no enthusiasm from his side! The only thing he wanted was that nobody put his finger on thekeyboard! (he maybe was afraid that somebody typed "rm -r /" or something like that). Anyway he stood all the time with his shoulder between me and the screen! His name is Mr. Mester, from Atari Germany. I personnaly find that if they sent some young guy involved in the devloppent of ASV, instead of this dick pig, it would be much better. ( Sorry for title on this bandwidth, but he was really dick and had a face of a pig!) If this is the Atari policy I think I'll buy an Amiga 3000 UX, wich is btw ready and can be bought w/o problems (atari devlopper machine will be out in August!!!). Ok, that's all! I'm sorry to write something like that, 'cause I was really excited at the idea I could see the ASV jewell, but it wasn't what I expected. I hoped that I could write a good description of what I would see, but I didn't see very much... Ciao --- Rick -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Opinion expressed here are mine, and I'm proud of them !!! And don't forget that: "No problem is so big or so complicated that it can't ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 01:44:20 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu !torsqnt!lsuc!jimomura@arizona.edu (Jim Omura) Subject: Atari 540ST Questions To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <8cFHkWi00VIB1iHeZd@andrew.cmu.edu> mc4c+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Choi) writes: >> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.atari.st: 28-May-91 Re: Atari 540ST >> Questions Michel Forget@ersys.edmo (2672) > >> > 3) How good is the mouse system on the unit? > >> The mouse isn't bad at all. It has two buttons, and looks fairly good. >> It is a nice mouse, but there are third party mice available if you don't >> like it. The Atari mouse is FAR BETTER than the Mac mouse, which I have > >Are you kidding? You must be kidding! Time for a few "mouse basics". I can believe that Michel is very happy with his mouse. I'm very happy with my own mouse too. I think you seem to be saying that you were not happy with yours. Well, first, not all Atari mice are the same. For the record, mine is a "Made in Japan", serial number P1595168339. I've been told that this was the best series of mice that Atari ever used. I clean it periodically and it keeps on working fine. It is perfectly even in response and the click response is fine in most situations, subject to proper adjustment via the Control Panel. I don't need a mouse accelerator for my work. Now, some of the later mice had various problems. At least 1 series of mice would not respond evenly in all directions. The classic is when you find the cursor doesn't move left as fast as it moves right. Others are apparently flimsy and don't last. Furthermore, if you work on a monochrome screen (and particularly the larger Moniterms) you will find that my mouse would suddenly feel too slow. That's because the system software doesn't adjust the response to act proportionally in that manner, so even though my mouse is fine for me, I could give you my mouse and you'd still not be happy for that reason. A variable speed mouse accelerator tends to be a better solution for this than a new mouse though. At least for some people this is true. And then there's the surface you work on. I don't use a "mouse pad". I've tried some and they didn't feel very good. What I do use is a sheet of old paper to run the mouse on. It allows the ball to grip well enough without affecting the overall feel. And then again, even aside from all that, you might not like my mouse and I might not like one that you like. That's just taste. -- Jim Omura, 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 03:54:51 GMT From: noao!asuvax!ncar!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio- state.edu!linac!att!pacbell.com!ucsd!sdcc6!sdcc5!cs180sbg@arizona.edu Subject: Atari 540ST Questions To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <426@equinox.unr.edu> takem_b@mammoth.unr.edu (Brian Takemoto) writes: >>I wonder which Atari mouse you're talking about. All Atari mice I've >>used are the most dreadful rodents I've ever come across, second to >>none, not even the "original" VAXstation-100 mouse (ever seen one of >>these?) feels as bad. >I've seen good mice from Atari and still own (and swear by) my original >Atari mouse which is at least a couple years old and has been HEAVILY used >and abused by my brother playing Dungeon Master I and II. Keep in mind that >this mouse was made in Japan and not country XYZZY. I do swear by MY mouse, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What country is this? >but I have also seen others that were "most dreadful rodents"... I've found >that the Japan mice keep good tracking, button touch, and feel with standard >care and cleaning... I cannot say the same for most others. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >takem_b@mammoth.unr.edu (or ?) ucbvax.berkley.edu!mammoth.unr.edu!takem_b ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 05:22:35 GMT From: van-bc!resbbs!Patrick_Devine@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Patrick Devine) Subject: Atari Mortis To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Here, in Vancouver, $3000 is in the 486/386-33 range. Of course, that's with an 80Mb Hard Drive, VGA 1024X768 1Mb Ram video card, and 1-4Mb's or RAM. The TT on the other hand costs just as much for a lot less. A 386-22 w/VGA, 100+Mb hard disk, etc. is now $1900. All prices are in Canadian dollars aswell, so that would be around $1650US. It looks as if Atari is cutting itself short .. again. patrick_devine -- Via DLG Pro v0.97b ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 05:29:51 GMT From: noao!ncar!csn!boulder!horton.Colorado.EDU!chuj@arizona.edu (CHU JEFFREY) Subject: Atari Mortis To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article Patrick_Devine@resbbs.UUCP (Patrick Devine) writes: > > Here, in Vancouver, $3000 is in the 486/386-33 range. Of course, that's >with an 80Mb Hard Drive, VGA 1024X768 1Mb Ram video card, and 1-4Mb's or RAM. >The TT on the other hand costs just as much for a lot less. A 386-22 w/VGA, >100+Mb hard disk, etc. is now $1900. All prices are in Canadian dollars >aswell, so that would be around $1650US. It looks as if Atari is cutting >itself short .. again. > >patrick_devine > >-- Via DLG Pro v0.97b > ATARI is not cheap anymore "POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE" now it should be said "PRICE WITHOUT THE POWER". In my store I sell the 486-33 for alot cheaper than that. My 486 systems start at $2275 with HD and monitor, and I seen them alot cheaper in mags., you just have to look for them. By the way what is 386-22? or do you mean 386-33. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 05:57:51 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.ut ah.edu!csn!boulder!horton.Colorado.EDU!chuj@arizona.edu (CHU JEFFREY) Subject: Atari Mortis To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1991May31.052951.13342@colorado.edu> chuj@horton.Colorado.EDU (CHU JEFFREY) writes: >In article Patrick_Devine@resbbs.UUCP (Patrick Devine) writes: >ATARI is not cheap anymore "POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE" now it should be said >"PRICE WITHOUT THE POWER". In my store I sell the 486-33 for alot cheaper >than that. My 486 systems start at $2275 with HD and monitor, and I seen them >alot cheaper in mags., you just have to look for them. By the way what is >386-22? or do you mean 386-33. I wanted to state that the following was mine opinion, this is not to cause any flames. After posting this I realize perhaps people may get the wrong idea. Someone has already sent mail stating how I am against ATARI, WRONG, I am interested in purchasing a TT and this is how I can learn from people posting the reasons and why the TT is worth purchasing. I don't plan on spending close to 3000 on a system in which I am unaware of things. I must know all point of views and try to get ATARIANS to respond. AS for against ATARI I have been in flame wars before in defense of ATARI against many other system users, but only to get involved when I see someone stating incorrect claims. (TT = i486-25 for example). Jeff ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 03:17:36 GMT From: noao!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!whi tten@arizona.edu Subject: Fan on the MEGAFILE 30 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu I've had a megafile 30 for about a year, and the only complaint I've had is the loud fan. Is it really needed, or will the drive run cool enough without it? Are there any ways to quiet the fan, maybe replacing it with a quieter one? THanks, Chris ============================================================================== WHITTEN@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU Chris Whittenburg, Univ. of Kansas WHITTEN@UKANVAX.bitnet Electrical Engineering ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 08:24:57 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ccut!wnoc-tyo-news! toumon!wucc!ytsuji@arizona.edu (Y.Tsuji) Subject: Fan on the MEGAFILE 30 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1991May30.221736.31169@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, whitten@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: > > I've had a megafile 30 for about a year, and the only complaint > I've had is the loud fan. Is it really needed, or will the > drive run cool enough without it? Are there any ways to quiet the > fan, maybe replacing it with a quieter one? At first I thought the same and replaced a better fan, which made no difference (human feel the noise is reduced to half when it is reduced to one tenth). I then added a couple of diodes along the 12 V line to the fan to reduce the voltage and turn the fan slower. This didn't make a difference either. I then bought another 5.25" disk second hand (66 MB at US$150) which is reputed to be the least noisy. The noise has been reduced to half, but it was still roaring! I then bought a 3.5" disk of the same specification at the same price. The noise has been reduced quite substantially now. But I must say it is still noisier than ordinary 104 MB SCSI drives. The megafile30's original drive was a seagate thing and got heated very easily. People sometimes sticks a very think fan on the drive mechanism directly,but the casing of megafile30 does not allow this. A warining: a 3.5" drive cannot be replaced on the 5.25" mounting. Tsuji ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 08:28:20 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ccut!wnoc-tyo-news! toumon!wucc!ytsuji@arizona.edu (Y.Tsuji) Subject: Fan on the MEGAFILE 30 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu P.S. The drive to be replaced must be RLL or 'as good as RLL certified'. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 10:56:52 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!ucsd!nosc!crash!pnet01!pr o-odyssey.cts.com!chuckie@arizona.edu (Chuck Schul) Subject: gcr To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu can specture gcr use apple system 7?how much memory does the atari need to run it since on a mac it needs mnionimum of 2 megs.? ---- ProLine: chuckie@pro-odyssey Internet: chuckie@pro-odyssey.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie ARPA: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie@nosc.mil ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 05:12:30 GMT From: munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!brolga!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!warwick@uunet.uu.net (Warwick Allison) Subject: Legal action against STrabble game. To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In mathew@mantis.co.uk (CNEWS MUST DIE!) writes: >As an aside: >I play the PD Tetris and Arkanoid games rather than the commercial ones. >Why? >Because I have a monochrome monitor. >If the software companies are so lazy that they won't make their games run on >my computer, well, I'll just have to use the superior PD programs. >I think (no guarantees) that the commercial Scrabble game is colour-only. It >certainly looks that way from the box. I wouldn't be suprised - the IBM version only uses CGA (the lowest of the lows). This does show how poor the implementation is. I wrote STrabble in mono first, then spent 2 days converting it to colour. It can only be described as poor programming not to be so flexible. Hey, and get this: The IBM version had music and beeps! I was soooooo impressed :-). Ciao, Warwick. -- _-_|\ warwick@cs.uq.oz.au / * <-- Computer Science Department, \_.-._/ University of Queensland, v Brisbane, AUSTRALIA. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 10:56:49 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!ucsd!nosc!crash!pnet01!pr o-odyssey.cts.com!chuckie@arizona.edu (Chuck Schul) Subject: looking for stacey To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu anyone have a stacey for sale?give me your phone numbers and your desired or price! thanks ---- ProLine: chuckie@pro-odyssey Internet: chuckie@pro-odyssey.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie ARPA: crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie@nosc.mil ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 00:15:00 GMT From: noao!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!c sd4.csd.uwm.edu!sinner@arizona.edu (Kenton E. Sinner) Subject: Modula-3 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Has anyone ported Modula-3 to the ST? Is anyone working on it? kenton. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 12:22:54 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia .edu!ira.uka.de!iravcl.ira.uka.de!s_kraemer@arizona.edu Subject: Problems with GDOS and HD driver (again) To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu I've got problems using GDOS (AMCGDOS) with the harddisk driver of my vortex HDplus 20 (hardware: Mega ST 2 with TOS 1.4). GDOS works if I don't use the harddisk, so I guess the problem is the disk driver. (The path in ASSIGN.SYS seems to be correct). Does anybody know how to solve this? Or can I use another HD driver without getting into trouble? Thanks for information! Oliver Kraemer Litzelaustr. 4A W-7500 Karlsruhe 21 Germany E-Mail: s_kraemer@iravcl.ira.uka.de ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 02:46:10 GMT From: mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news@uunet.uu.net (Gavin Syme) Subject: ST User Virus! To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <10099@suns2.crosfield.co.uk>, imt@crosfield.co.uk (ian taylor) wri- tes: >(This is probably only of interest to UK netters, although I believe ST User >magazine is available internationally by mail order) > >Has anyone had problems with this months (June) ST User cover disk? >I think that there is a free virus included on the coverdisk, which mangled >the directory of two of my disks before I eradicated it. This is the second >time that ST User has done this, and frankly I am bloody unimpressed. Anyone >who's got this disk, beware. > > According to vkiller, there's nothing wrong with the disk. Looks like your problems lie elsewhere. Gavin Syme. ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 03:56:51 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.u iowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!vaxf.iastate.edu!TNFW0@arizona.edu Subject: Unix for the TT? To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Since I haven't seen any talk about this subject, I'll start some. Is UNIX yet available for the TT, or is that somewhere in the indefinite (infinte?) future? Steven Ourada ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 91 05:25:38 GMT From: van-bc!resbbs!Patrick_Devine@uunet.uu.net (Patrick Devine) Subject: WANTED: PD Neochrome Editor To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Does someone have a public domain Neochrome editor other then Art ST 2? Art ST is so limiting, its not funny. The pixel drawing command only works on half of the page, and the clearscreen command leaves part of the page on the screen aswell. Ack! patrick_devine -- Via DLG Pro v0.97b ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 91 23:30:04 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!convex!rosen kra@arizona.edu (William Rosencranz) Subject: What's a fair comparison? To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu In article <1991May30.145023.1684@chinet.chi.il.us> saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: >has had several articles on the subject), but I'll modestly propose as a >benchmark the time for GNU C to compile itself, with all temporary files on >hard disk. Any other suggestions? benchmarking is often serious stuff, at least at the level i deal with. so, you must also post guidelines like 1) all tmp files to single n sized (empty) partition, 2) hd seed rate should be included in results, 3) non- standard clock speed, 4) version of GNU C (which can't be enhanced), 5) compiler switches, etc, etc, etc... as u can see, to truly make objective comparisons you have to be thorough. in general, benchmarks including compiles are less desirable (yes, even SPECmark) since you more often than not compare compilers not systems. dhrystone is notorious for this (i have seen *widely* varying DS for exactly the same hardware, just different compilers). i think you are better off with real or near-real applications and just use the fastest compiler for that system. report the compiler as well. at least with real applications, users have a better feel more often than not. i would also try to exercise different aspects of an architecture: raw cpu, data/instruction cache, i/o, screen writes, etc. fortunately (???) the TOS ST is not multitasking (really) so that at least there are no issues like throughput vs single job times :-) in general, the more information the better. try to avoid single number performance indeces. let the user make up his own mind. his/her application may be totally different than yours... -bill rosenkra@convex.com -- Bill Rosenkranz |UUCP: {uunet,texsun}!convex!c1yankee!rosenkra Convex Computer Corp. |ARPA: rosenkra%c1yankee@convex.com ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ******************************